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c is for choice
   
sinnin
10/9/2006     
Member Your thoughts on this...
everyones thoughts etc are welcome,lets get this board alive with thoughts,suggestions,topics etc.
just like non BDSM people are invited to post on the BDSM boards....
non GLBT people are invited and actually,urged to post here.



C is for choice

I'm sure we've all heard this: People that choose to be gay...
Or: Those that choose to lead a lifestyle of homosexuality...
People who think along those lines argue that everyone is heterosexual. It's depraved people that choose same sex acts.

I don't know about you, but when's the last time the whole world got together and did the same exact thing? We're not all white, we're not all male, we're not all tall, short, blonde, blue eyed, fat, skinny...seems to me that there's always more than one way to be.

Next, you hear, "Well, animals aren't gay! So people aren't, either?"

Do I look like I have anything in common with a squirrel? Anyway, there is homosexuality and bisexuality in the animal kingdom. Yes, that's right. Whether it's from personal attraction or population control, there are animals that are attracted to the same sex. Usually, the person who brought up that comment says, "Oh, well, we're not animals, we're more evolved than that." Yes, that's right, we're better than animals. Come on, let's wipe out another species, we're so much better than everything else.

I won't address the Bible, because Christianity is not the major religion in the world (actually, I think Islam is), nor the only religion in the world; the Bible can be used to interpret anything you like; technically, it doesn't mention lesbians (whoo-hoo, girls!); and I've talked with a few Catholic and ex-Catholic priests on this subject (because it fascinates me, and these are just about the only guys I can discuss this with who won't yell at me), and most of them agree that there is room for error both in the translation and interpretation of the bible. Besides, any of you that ate ham this Thanksgiving, are probably going to hell. And I love ham and make no apology for it.

It's not a mental illness. See what the American Psychological Association say about it. And did you know that an estimated 10% of the population is gay, lesbian or bisexual? And those are just the ones that are out? I know, statistics are sometimes no good. But you have to figure that there are a lot of people that haven't come out yet. A LOT. No one knows how many. Some people even say that one out of every four people is homosexual, bisexual, asexual or transgender--in other words, not straight.

Also, take this into account: How many people would choose to be hated and persecuted? How many people would choose to have to lose "friends", family, be asked to leave churches and social groups? To be honest, if someone waved the magic wand and asked if I would change my sexuality, at times I've thought I would--but I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't change my color to make me more socially acceptable. It's a part of me. It's not a choice, or a fad with me. It's who I am. Take that away, and I'm not the same person you knew before.


article by K.Hayes


Post #15735 Back to top ▲
10/9/2006
  
sinnin
Member
Your thoughts on this...
everyones thoughts etc are welcome,lets get this board alive with thoughts,suggestions,topics etc.
just like non BDSM people are invited to post on the BDSM boards....
non GLBT people are invited and actually,urged to post here.



C is for choice

I'm sure we've all heard this: People that choose to be gay...
Or: Those that choose to lead a lifestyle of homosexuality...
People who think along those lines argue that everyone is heterosexual. It's depraved people that choose same sex acts.

I don't know about you, but when's the last time the whole world got together and did the same exact thing? We're not all white, we're not all male, we're not all tall, short, blonde, blue eyed, fat, skinny...seems to me that there's always more than one way to be.

Next, you hear, "Well, animals aren't gay! So people aren't, either?"

Do I look like I have anything in common with a squirrel? Anyway, there is homosexuality and bisexuality in the animal kingdom. Yes, that's right. Whether it's from personal attraction or population control, there are animals that are attracted to the same sex. Usually, the person who brought up that comment says, "Oh, well, we're not animals, we're more evolved than that." Yes, that's right, we're better than animals. Come on, let's wipe out another species, we're so much better than everything else.

I won't address the Bible, because Christianity is not the major religion in the world (actually, I think Islam is), nor the only religion in the world; the Bible can be used to interpret anything you like; technically, it doesn't mention lesbians (whoo-hoo, girls!); and I've talked with a few Catholic and ex-Catholic priests on this subject (because it fascinates me, and these are just about the only guys I can discuss this with who won't yell at me), and most of them agree that there is room for error both in the translation and interpretation of the bible. Besides, any of you that ate ham this Thanksgiving, are probably going to hell. And I love ham and make no apology for it.

It's not a mental illness. See what the American Psychological Association say about it. And did you know that an estimated 10% of the population is gay, lesbian or bisexual? And those are just the ones that are out? I know, statistics are sometimes no good. But you have to figure that there are a lot of people that haven't come out yet. A LOT. No one knows how many. Some people even say that one out of every four people is homosexual, bisexual, asexual or transgender--in other words, not straight.

Also, take this into account: How many people would choose to be hated and persecuted? How many people would choose to have to lose "friends", family, be asked to leave churches and social groups? To be honest, if someone waved the magic wand and asked if I would change my sexuality, at times I've thought I would--but I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't change my color to make me more socially acceptable. It's a part of me. It's not a choice, or a fad with me. It's who I am. Take that away, and I'm not the same person you knew before.


article by K.Hayes


Post #15735
Christopher
10/9/2006     
Member I believe it is a choice although I want to state very clearly that there is no inherent "right" or "wrong" in any of the three choices. Four, really, if you count abstinence.



Inherently, our lives are nothing but a very long series of choices. Something so minute as what shoes to wear today to incredibly important choices such as having children or adopting. I do not believe that the human genome is so constructed as to hardwire someone as "heterosexual", "homosexual" or "bisexual". Inevitably, over time, one strain would prove to be the strongest and the others would either be removed from the gene pool or severely curtailed as non-viable to the survival of the species as a whole.

Indeed, from a personal perspective, I chose to fall in love with a woman. It was by choice that I sought a wife instead of a husband. The unfortunate aspect of these types of discussions is that so very few people can step back from an emotive and personal viewpoint to look at the issue as a whole. The definition of "right" and "wrong" are societal values which are based upon the judgement of the members of that particular society as a whole.

In many ways, the "loud and proud" approach creates the very antithesis of what seems to be sought. As an individual, I no more enjoy Prince Prissypants' lisping, screeching and effeminate behavior shoved down my throat than I do some thick skulled Bible thumper interrupting my peaceful, agnostic Sunday morning. Ergo, in both instances, I am much less likely to be either receptive or welcoming of those particular viewpoints in life.

I think this further ties in to the "struggle" that many homosexuals and bisexuals feel they are engaged in for equal "civil rights". Often, I have either read, seen or heard it compared to efforts of Dr. Martin Luther King. Unfortunately, by arguing every single minute point, the entire message is lost amidst the noise of hard liners screaming at each other over a non-existant line. What is lacking isn't "civil" rights but basic "human" rights. Poke or be poked in whatever orifice you like with whatever object you like behind the sanctity of your own closed chamber doors. The makeout sessions in public? Not appropriate for any orientation.

Instead of slapping an ill-fitting and divisive label on someone, can we not, instead, focus on being human with grace and dignity?


.

Edited: 9/14/2008 by NightTemptress
Post #778385 Back to top ▲
10/9/2006
  
Christopher
Member
I believe it is a choice although I want to state very clearly that there is no inherent "right" or "wrong" in any of the three choices. Four, really, if you count abstinence.



Inherently, our lives are nothing but a very long series of choices. Something so minute as what shoes to wear today to incredibly important choices such as having children or adopting. I do not believe that the human genome is so constructed as to hardwire someone as "heterosexual", "homosexual" or "bisexual". Inevitably, over time, one strain would prove to be the strongest and the others would either be removed from the gene pool or severely curtailed as non-viable to the survival of the species as a whole.

Indeed, from a personal perspective, I chose to fall in love with a woman. It was by choice that I sought a wife instead of a husband. The unfortunate aspect of these types of discussions is that so very few people can step back from an emotive and personal viewpoint to look at the issue as a whole. The definition of "right" and "wrong" are societal values which are based upon the judgement of the members of that particular society as a whole.

In many ways, the "loud and proud" approach creates the very antithesis of what seems to be sought. As an individual, I no more enjoy Prince Prissypants' lisping, screeching and effeminate behavior shoved down my throat than I do some thick skulled Bible thumper interrupting my peaceful, agnostic Sunday morning. Ergo, in both instances, I am much less likely to be either receptive or welcoming of those particular viewpoints in life.

I think this further ties in to the "struggle" that many homosexuals and bisexuals feel they are engaged in for equal "civil rights". Often, I have either read, seen or heard it compared to efforts of Dr. Martin Luther King. Unfortunately, by arguing every single minute point, the entire message is lost amidst the noise of hard liners screaming at each other over a non-existant line. What is lacking isn't "civil" rights but basic "human" rights. Poke or be poked in whatever orifice you like with whatever object you like behind the sanctity of your own closed chamber doors. The makeout sessions in public? Not appropriate for any orientation.

Instead of slapping an ill-fitting and divisive label on someone, can we not, instead, focus on being human with grace and dignity?


.

Edited: 9/14/2008 by NightTemptress
Post #778385
Christopher
10/9/2006     
Member

i don't buy it Christopher. My gay friends knew they were gay long before they were old enough to have an interest in the opposite or any sex at all.


I'd ask for conclusive proof instead of anecdotal evidence. It has nothing to do with my belief or disbelief but that's not data that is reliably reproducable.



as for the marriage issue, why shouldn't they be allowed to legalize their relationship?


I did not address marriage at all, merely stated my own choice in the matter. I believe pairing is a basic human right and orientation is immaterial in that pairing.



many heterosexual marriage partners do horrible things to each other but we turn the other cheek because that's marriage between a man and a woman.


We do? Here I thought that what people do to one another was addressed by the judicial system.



for once the US is very very wrong when the rest of the world is getting it right


That is an opinion, not a fact. As I said in my previous post, "right" and "wrong" are societally created values. Specifically the majority of the society that holds political power.


]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.

This message was edited by Christopher on 10-9-06 @ 6:00 PM


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Post #778387 Back to top ▲
10/9/2006
  
Christopher
Member

i don't buy it Christopher. My gay friends knew they were gay long before they were old enough to have an interest in the opposite or any sex at all.


I'd ask for conclusive proof instead of anecdotal evidence. It has nothing to do with my belief or disbelief but that's not data that is reliably reproducable.



as for the marriage issue, why shouldn't they be allowed to legalize their relationship?


I did not address marriage at all, merely stated my own choice in the matter. I believe pairing is a basic human right and orientation is immaterial in that pairing.



many heterosexual marriage partners do horrible things to each other but we turn the other cheek because that's marriage between a man and a woman.


We do? Here I thought that what people do to one another was addressed by the judicial system.



for once the US is very very wrong when the rest of the world is getting it right


That is an opinion, not a fact. As I said in my previous post, "right" and "wrong" are societally created values. Specifically the majority of the society that holds political power.


]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.

This message was edited by Christopher on 10-9-06 @ 6:00 PM


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Post #778387
ShadowWolf
10/10/2006     
Member hmmmmm interesting and thought provoking question....




I am gay because it is who I am.....and C I love Ya but You cannot disprove that is or is not genetic so truly You cannot say either way...no one truly can it is a mystery....but I know it is natural and right for Me and it is a part of Me just as My skin color is...plain and simple...I cannot choose to be straight no more then a hetrosexual person can choose to be truly gay....not just curious but truly gay....I am no more attracted ot a man then I would be a dog.....and that is a very natural feeling for Me....the thought of sleeping with a guy would literally make Me feel nausea as if I was going to sleep with My father or brother....~+nods softly+~...



nor do I believe it is an "abnormality".......no more again then skin color...eye color....build.....does it really matter though....no.....it simply is who some people are no matter how they got that way....and that means they are just as human as every one else and deserve the same rights afforded others....

and as far as our justice system....well that is a laff in itself and an embarrassment.....


SW~bron

Post #778388 Back to top ▲
10/10/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
hmmmmm interesting and thought provoking question....




I am gay because it is who I am.....and C I love Ya but You cannot disprove that is or is not genetic so truly You cannot say either way...no one truly can it is a mystery....but I know it is natural and right for Me and it is a part of Me just as My skin color is...plain and simple...I cannot choose to be straight no more then a hetrosexual person can choose to be truly gay....not just curious but truly gay....I am no more attracted ot a man then I would be a dog.....and that is a very natural feeling for Me....the thought of sleeping with a guy would literally make Me feel nausea as if I was going to sleep with My father or brother....~+nods softly+~...



nor do I believe it is an "abnormality".......no more again then skin color...eye color....build.....does it really matter though....no.....it simply is who some people are no matter how they got that way....and that means they are just as human as every one else and deserve the same rights afforded others....

and as far as our justice system....well that is a laff in itself and an embarrassment.....


SW~bron

Post #778388
Christopher
10/10/2006     
Member

and C I love Ya but You cannot disprove that is or is not genetic so truly You cannot say either way...no one truly can


LadyWolf, that is an incorrect statement. If such a preference is genetic, medical research can certainly do a cross comparison across multiple DNA structure samples after weeding out gender, hair color, height, etcetera to look for both the commonly shared strands as well as the differing strands. That's the whole point behind genetic research. To discover what every strand in the whole genome is responsible for and to find ways to tweak it. I would only hope that such tweaks are benevolent, like weeding out cancer or heart disease.

Take a step back from your counterpoint and do not use the words "me", "my" "mine" or "I". Look at the matter logically for just a moment.

Looking back over time, it can be genetically proven that the human being has evolved to better deal with his environment. It is known that certain DNA branches died out as being not as fit to survive as others. Natural selection is, in fact, quite the bitch when it comes to determining what species lives or dies. Genetically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense to evolve a strain that is not self-replicating. Why, at the genetic level, would a species naturally chose to not procreate?

The only answer that seems readily apparent is over-population. If a migratory species (which, by the by, humans started off as) can not move to more plentiful resources and are stuck in the same locale, it makes sense that a declination of breeding rates would occur. However, humans don't have the problem of not being able to manufacture more of the resources they need to continue with their day to day existence.

So I posit that it is a choice. Yet one so deeply rooted and subconscious as to make it seem as if there was/is/shall be truly no other choice. Now what the incipient of that choice is should be, and is, a completely different matter.


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Post #778389 Back to top ▲
10/10/2006
  
Christopher
Member


and C I love Ya but You cannot disprove that is or is not genetic so truly You cannot say either way...no one truly can


LadyWolf, that is an incorrect statement. If such a preference is genetic, medical research can certainly do a cross comparison across multiple DNA structure samples after weeding out gender, hair color, height, etcetera to look for both the commonly shared strands as well as the differing strands. That's the whole point behind genetic research. To discover what every strand in the whole genome is responsible for and to find ways to tweak it. I would only hope that such tweaks are benevolent, like weeding out cancer or heart disease.

Take a step back from your counterpoint and do not use the words "me", "my" "mine" or "I". Look at the matter logically for just a moment.

Looking back over time, it can be genetically proven that the human being has evolved to better deal with his environment. It is known that certain DNA branches died out as being not as fit to survive as others. Natural selection is, in fact, quite the bitch when it comes to determining what species lives or dies. Genetically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense to evolve a strain that is not self-replicating. Why, at the genetic level, would a species naturally chose to not procreate?

The only answer that seems readily apparent is over-population. If a migratory species (which, by the by, humans started off as) can not move to more plentiful resources and are stuck in the same locale, it makes sense that a declination of breeding rates would occur. However, humans don't have the problem of not being able to manufacture more of the resources they need to continue with their day to day existence.

So I posit that it is a choice. Yet one so deeply rooted and subconscious as to make it seem as if there was/is/shall be truly no other choice. Now what the incipient of that choice is should be, and is, a completely different matter.


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Post #778389
ShadowWolf
10/16/2006     
Member sorry C...on this You and I will have to agree to disagree......You are not gay and therefore truly cannot speak with any real knowledge of it or it's begginings or lifestyle.......I would not choose to live a life that robs Me of the very same rights others are allowed...a lifestyle that is dangerous at times and full of hate and prejusdice......I can no more choose My sexualality then can a person choose the color of thier skin......or gender or hair color or the fact they are disabled......that's not to say some do not choose it.....but I do not....it is who I am.....who I was born as....


I am who I am and that C is not a choice...it is just as natural and right for Me as being a man and loving a woman is to you......if sexual oreientation were a choci then straight poeple could choose to be gay whenever they wanted....and you know after many years of talking with people.....My best friends being straight I know it is no more a choice for them then it is for Me.....I knew very young who I was.....knew without doubt.....and was scared to death of it...but I never doubted it or questioned it....

I respect Your intelligence Tiger..always ahve and yes I can look at it logically.....but in the end....I speak about it form personal experience because I am gay so I can understand the need and the feeling in a way You can not......so while I love hearing all You add in this aspect.....You truly are out of Your element as a straight person...just as I could never begin to speak about or try to explain heterosexual tendencies.......

~+leaves a hug for the Tiger and goes+~

Post #778392 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
sorry C...on this You and I will have to agree to disagree......You are not gay and therefore truly cannot speak with any real knowledge of it or it's begginings or lifestyle.......I would not choose to live a life that robs Me of the very same rights others are allowed...a lifestyle that is dangerous at times and full of hate and prejusdice......I can no more choose My sexualality then can a person choose the color of thier skin......or gender or hair color or the fact they are disabled......that's not to say some do not choose it.....but I do not....it is who I am.....who I was born as....


I am who I am and that C is not a choice...it is just as natural and right for Me as being a man and loving a woman is to you......if sexual oreientation were a choci then straight poeple could choose to be gay whenever they wanted....and you know after many years of talking with people.....My best friends being straight I know it is no more a choice for them then it is for Me.....I knew very young who I was.....knew without doubt.....and was scared to death of it...but I never doubted it or questioned it....

I respect Your intelligence Tiger..always ahve and yes I can look at it logically.....but in the end....I speak about it form personal experience because I am gay so I can understand the need and the feeling in a way You can not......so while I love hearing all You add in this aspect.....You truly are out of Your element as a straight person...just as I could never begin to speak about or try to explain heterosexual tendencies.......

~+leaves a hug for the Tiger and goes+~

Post #778392
ShadowWolf
10/16/2006     
Member thumper...no worries on the word...not taken offensively at all....~+smiles+`

Vindicator......aye I agree that homosexuality has no clear cut anything......it is one of the most debated topics and everyone thinks they have the answer......

so I can only speak for Myself.....for some maybe it is a choice....but for Me.....it simply is not.....it is who I am period...no choice....I could not choose to be straight.....it would be like choosing to be black...well I am white and that ain't changing...anymore then My sexual preference......


~+nods softly and slips out+~

Post #778393 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
thumper...no worries on the word...not taken offensively at all....~+smiles+`

Vindicator......aye I agree that homosexuality has no clear cut anything......it is one of the most debated topics and everyone thinks they have the answer......

so I can only speak for Myself.....for some maybe it is a choice....but for Me.....it simply is not.....it is who I am period...no choice....I could not choose to be straight.....it would be like choosing to be black...well I am white and that ain't changing...anymore then My sexual preference......


~+nods softly and slips out+~

Post #778393
Christopher
10/16/2006     
Member LadyWolf, you have never asked me my particular preference nor have I made it widely known.

Because I am married to a woman doesn't make me automatically heterosexual.

Your assumption saddens me as you can not know my history without asking me for it. I understand that you have only seen me flirt with women but that not is not enough to make a true and accurate statement about my orientation. One line in particular that I stated in a previous point makes it clearly obvious.


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Post #778394 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
Christopher
Member
LadyWolf, you have never asked me my particular preference nor have I made it widely known.

Because I am married to a woman doesn't make me automatically heterosexual.

Your assumption saddens me as you can not know my history without asking me for it. I understand that you have only seen me flirt with women but that not is not enough to make a true and accurate statement about my orientation. One line in particular that I stated in a previous point makes it clearly obvious.


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Post #778394
ShadowWolf
10/16/2006     
Member Tiger......actually I do know you like both sexes Dear.....You have told Me as such......but being bisexual.....does not make You gay.....it is truly is a different thing.....not better nor worse....but different......I make no assumptions about Anyone C.......or at least I try not to......nor would I aaume to know truly why I am who I am in the end.....just as even with Your amazing intelligence You do not have a clue what causes homosexuality...actually..no one truly does and that I believe.....but I will not question what makes Me happy.....nor who I am in My heart....I will fight for My rights as an equal human being.....I will not be told I can choose to be straight because I can truly not and I will not hide who I am for I am proud of who I am......no matter how I got this way.....


~+smiles at the Tiger...leaves a hug and slips out+~

SW~bron

Post #778395 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
Tiger......actually I do know you like both sexes Dear.....You have told Me as such......but being bisexual.....does not make You gay.....it is truly is a different thing.....not better nor worse....but different......I make no assumptions about Anyone C.......or at least I try not to......nor would I aaume to know truly why I am who I am in the end.....just as even with Your amazing intelligence You do not have a clue what causes homosexuality...actually..no one truly does and that I believe.....but I will not question what makes Me happy.....nor who I am in My heart....I will fight for My rights as an equal human being.....I will not be told I can choose to be straight because I can truly not and I will not hide who I am for I am proud of who I am......no matter how I got this way.....


~+smiles at the Tiger...leaves a hug and slips out+~

SW~bron

Post #778395
sinnin
10/16/2006     
Member gotta say...
i am LOVING this mature,intelligent debate,SW and Christopher.
really,really loving it.
great opinions on Both Your parts.
Smile

Post #778396 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
sinnin
Member
gotta say...
i am LOVING this mature,intelligent debate,SW and Christopher.
really,really loving it.
great opinions on Both Your parts.
Smile

Post #778396
Christopher
10/16/2006     
Member LadyWolf, I am not stating that I do know, for a fact, what causes the differences in orientation. What I am doing is positing a theory based on genetics and the evolution of a species over time as well as expounding upon that theory. From a genetic standpoint only,ie not my personal opinion, it does not make sense for not-reproductive strains of DNA to continue to evolve and develop. It's like taking entropy and opening it on one side so that it no longer conforms to thermodynamic law.

I have never said that I was homosexual. In fact, I decline to identify myself in any way as I do not believe my orientation makes me what or whom I am. I make me what and whom I am.

I have not asked you to question what makes you happy. In no way have I asked you to explain yourself personally. I have, however, asked you to explain how you believe orientation is inherent and not an act of choice. I have, in effect, asked you to create a counterpoint to my theory.

If it "just is", without requiring proof or supporting evidence, then it is no longer fact but, instead, becomes a belief. See my point? That's like saying "God just is. I require no proof to support his/her/its existence.". Different subject, same logic.

However, I am very interested in hearing your response on this. What is the the difference, if any, between two men who are committed to one another, and homosexual, and two men who are committed to one another, one bisexual and the other homosexual?

Can you please draw me a clear and definitive line where that commitment, where that concern for the other's well being and, indeed, the love held is seperate from both cases?

This message was edited by Christopher on 10-16-06 @ 4:56 PM


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Post #778397 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
Christopher
Member
LadyWolf, I am not stating that I do know, for a fact, what causes the differences in orientation. What I am doing is positing a theory based on genetics and the evolution of a species over time as well as expounding upon that theory. From a genetic standpoint only,ie not my personal opinion, it does not make sense for not-reproductive strains of DNA to continue to evolve and develop. It's like taking entropy and opening it on one side so that it no longer conforms to thermodynamic law.

I have never said that I was homosexual. In fact, I decline to identify myself in any way as I do not believe my orientation makes me what or whom I am. I make me what and whom I am.

I have not asked you to question what makes you happy. In no way have I asked you to explain yourself personally. I have, however, asked you to explain how you believe orientation is inherent and not an act of choice. I have, in effect, asked you to create a counterpoint to my theory.

If it "just is", without requiring proof or supporting evidence, then it is no longer fact but, instead, becomes a belief. See my point? That's like saying "God just is. I require no proof to support his/her/its existence.". Different subject, same logic.

However, I am very interested in hearing your response on this. What is the the difference, if any, between two men who are committed to one another, and homosexual, and two men who are committed to one another, one bisexual and the other homosexual?

Can you please draw me a clear and definitive line where that commitment, where that concern for the other's well being and, indeed, the love held is seperate from both cases?

This message was edited by Christopher on 10-16-06 @ 4:56 PM


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Post #778397
Christopher
10/16/2006     
Member [Smiles]

Thank you, sinnin. LadyWolf and I have a common respect for one another and we're mature adults. Ergo, we can disagree without devolving in to junior high personal insults.

Even if we agree to disagree, it doesn't make the fact that I respect the Hell out of her any less than what it was before we started debating.


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Post #778398 Back to top ▲
10/16/2006
  
Christopher
Member
[Smiles]

Thank you, sinnin. LadyWolf and I have a common respect for one another and we're mature adults. Ergo, we can disagree without devolving in to junior high personal insults.

Even if we agree to disagree, it doesn't make the fact that I respect the Hell out of her any less than what it was before we started debating.


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Post #778398
ShadowWolf
10/17/2006     
Member sinnin....thank you...and Chris is right that We have a great of respect and caring for eac other...so it truly become an honest discussion....not silliness and mud slinging....whisich is nice.....



Tiger.....I do understand what You are saying....and from a scientific point I cannot sya because I am not a geneticist nor anything in that nature of things....therefore I must go with what I feel about it within Myself.......all I can speak from is My own experience........nothing more...nothing less.....though I will say that in nature homosexual tendencies are displayed many times over....and there are creatures who have evolved to reproducing on thier own without a partner......so if nature can see fir to evolve in such a way...well we are not above that......


and in no way is the love any different if one partner is gay and bi......never implied as such and if I did it was not what I menat to do....I meant simply.....that to be bisexual and to be gay.....are different....in that to be bi....you know you have feelings for both sexes....to be gay....you know that your feelings are for one sex and one alone......and that it is not a choice........

and no C...I know You are not gay.....but you have implied You find men attractive........therefore....technically bisexual......but here I do agree with You that labels are not a neccessary thing.......~+nods and smiles+~.....

SW~bron

Post #778399 Back to top ▲
10/17/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
sinnin....thank you...and Chris is right that We have a great of respect and caring for eac other...so it truly become an honest discussion....not silliness and mud slinging....whisich is nice.....



Tiger.....I do understand what You are saying....and from a scientific point I cannot sya because I am not a geneticist nor anything in that nature of things....therefore I must go with what I feel about it within Myself.......all I can speak from is My own experience........nothing more...nothing less.....though I will say that in nature homosexual tendencies are displayed many times over....and there are creatures who have evolved to reproducing on thier own without a partner......so if nature can see fir to evolve in such a way...well we are not above that......


and in no way is the love any different if one partner is gay and bi......never implied as such and if I did it was not what I menat to do....I meant simply.....that to be bisexual and to be gay.....are different....in that to be bi....you know you have feelings for both sexes....to be gay....you know that your feelings are for one sex and one alone......and that it is not a choice........

and no C...I know You are not gay.....but you have implied You find men attractive........therefore....technically bisexual......but here I do agree with You that labels are not a neccessary thing.......~+nods and smiles+~.....

SW~bron

Post #778399
Christopher
10/17/2006     
Member Ladywolf, I am not a geneticist either but I have done a great deal of studying in the field of genetics for other reasons.

Yes, we see acts of homosexuality in the mammal kingdom. We also see murder and other acts that we have previously attributed to solely existing within human beings. However, I do not believe that we can equate the actions of the animal kingdom with the actions of humans. Humans have a much higher brain function which the scientific community generally believes helps shape the future development of the species as a whole.

Asexual reproduction would be disaster for us as a species and, quite honestly, would deprive of us of the greatest past time since we learned how to skip the first flat rock across the surface of a pond. Sex is awesome, no matter whom you engage in it with.

How is being bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual any different from one another when we are discussing a commitment to a partner? I don't have to be homosexual to understand the depth of commitment and love you have for bron. You do not have to be bisexual or heterosexual to understand the same feelings I have for my Lady. How does orientation in any way enter in to that feeling?

Whatever body the soul you love resides in is, in my opinion, irrelevant.

[Laughs softly] Let's not try to pin down my orientation in public. It is not something I wish to openly discuss. We can in private, if you wish, however.



]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.


.
Post #778400 Back to top ▲
10/17/2006
  
Christopher
Member
Ladywolf, I am not a geneticist either but I have done a great deal of studying in the field of genetics for other reasons.

Yes, we see acts of homosexuality in the mammal kingdom. We also see murder and other acts that we have previously attributed to solely existing within human beings. However, I do not believe that we can equate the actions of the animal kingdom with the actions of humans. Humans have a much higher brain function which the scientific community generally believes helps shape the future development of the species as a whole.

Asexual reproduction would be disaster for us as a species and, quite honestly, would deprive of us of the greatest past time since we learned how to skip the first flat rock across the surface of a pond. Sex is awesome, no matter whom you engage in it with.

How is being bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual any different from one another when we are discussing a commitment to a partner? I don't have to be homosexual to understand the depth of commitment and love you have for bron. You do not have to be bisexual or heterosexual to understand the same feelings I have for my Lady. How does orientation in any way enter in to that feeling?

Whatever body the soul you love resides in is, in my opinion, irrelevant.

[Laughs softly] Let's not try to pin down my orientation in public. It is not something I wish to openly discuss. We can in private, if you wish, however.



]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.


.
Post #778400
ShadowWolf
10/19/2006     
Member Tiger.....well now I will only say that I disagree about humans being top of the intellectual ladder.....tis not nature destroying the very world we hope live in for thousands of years to come......nor raping thier own children...selling them to other predators ect.......we are a depraved species and the saddest part....we do it for pleasure...not survival.....though that is in itself another whole discussion....

and asexual reproduction would not deprive us of sex C....simply would mean it was more for pleasure then reproduction nothing more......

and the feelings of love and commitment are different person to person.....but no different no matter your sexual oreintation......butttttt it is different to be gay then to be bi then to be straight.....very different....in many ways.....

and yes we can discuss your sexual preferance privately but you did post openly on a gay thread and you did accuse Me of making an assumption which I did not....so I was only making a rebuttal......


~+leaves a hug and slips out+~

SW~bron

Post #778401 Back to top ▲
10/19/2006
  
ShadowWolf
Member
Tiger.....well now I will only say that I disagree about humans being top of the intellectual ladder.....tis not nature destroying the very world we hope live in for thousands of years to come......nor raping thier own children...selling them to other predators ect.......we are a depraved species and the saddest part....we do it for pleasure...not survival.....though that is in itself another whole discussion....

and asexual reproduction would not deprive us of sex C....simply would mean it was more for pleasure then reproduction nothing more......

and the feelings of love and commitment are different person to person.....but no different no matter your sexual oreintation......butttttt it is different to be gay then to be bi then to be straight.....very different....in many ways.....

and yes we can discuss your sexual preferance privately but you did post openly on a gay thread and you did accuse Me of making an assumption which I did not....so I was only making a rebuttal......


~+leaves a hug and slips out+~

SW~bron

Post #778401
Christopher
10/22/2006     
Member

...tis not nature destroying the very world we hope live in for thousands of years to come......nor raping thier own children...selling them to other predators ect.......we are a depraved species and the saddest part....we do it for pleasure...not survival.....though that is in itself another whole discussion....


Correct, for that is a moral discussion and morals do not equate to biology or genetics. Nothing in biology or genetics prohibits your above examples.



sexual reproduction would not deprive us of sex C...


Yes it would. Were the human being asexual, they would have dwarfed and non functional secondary sex characteristics as we know them today. The penis? Don't need it. Vagina, uterus and ovaries? Probably blend in to one and breasts would be largely extraneous. See Discovery's "Evolution of Man" for a better explanation and possible future mutations. Biologically, there is no need for mammalian reproductive organs if the host can do it all internally. Further, the drive to pair would become significantly less intense and thus radically changing the culture of Mankind as we know it. Again, see Discovery's "Evolution of Man". It was a great four hour series.



butttttt it is different to be gay then to be bi then to be straight.....very different....in many ways.....


I am still waiting for you to show me, without anecdotal evidence, what these differences are. What you have provided thus far falls squarely in the realm of the pscyhological and not within the confines of the biological.



]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.


.
Post #778402 Back to top ▲
10/22/2006
  
Christopher
Member


...tis not nature destroying the very world we hope live in for thousands of years to come......nor raping thier own children...selling them to other predators ect.......we are a depraved species and the saddest part....we do it for pleasure...not survival.....though that is in itself another whole discussion....


Correct, for that is a moral discussion and morals do not equate to biology or genetics. Nothing in biology or genetics prohibits your above examples.



sexual reproduction would not deprive us of sex C...


Yes it would. Were the human being asexual, they would have dwarfed and non functional secondary sex characteristics as we know them today. The penis? Don't need it. Vagina, uterus and ovaries? Probably blend in to one and breasts would be largely extraneous. See Discovery's "Evolution of Man" for a better explanation and possible future mutations. Biologically, there is no need for mammalian reproductive organs if the host can do it all internally. Further, the drive to pair would become significantly less intense and thus radically changing the culture of Mankind as we know it. Again, see Discovery's "Evolution of Man". It was a great four hour series.



butttttt it is different to be gay then to be bi then to be straight.....very different....in many ways.....


I am still waiting for you to show me, without anecdotal evidence, what these differences are. What you have provided thus far falls squarely in the realm of the pscyhological and not within the confines of the biological.



]Sig[
I don't play video games. I train in murder simulators.


.
Post #778402
sinnin
10/21/2007     
Member
Get over it. Being Gay is not a special club where only those who are KNOW. We all know. We all have to deal with relationships with people in our own ways.


The day you experience what its like knowing you probably won't be allowed to make your partners dream of being a bride true;the day you experience being kicked out of your own home and disowned by your own parents for merely following your heart and being true to yourself;the day you walk down the street holding your girlfriends hand and have everyone look at you as if you're the scum of the earth....that day...you can sit here and say "Being Gay is not a special club where only those who are KNOW."

I'm sitting here saying....'only those who are know.'

Because i am. And because i know.

Yes,life is full of prejudices. To all different social groups,racial groups,gender etc etc. But this is the GLBT boards. Which is why prejudice against members of the GLBT community is discussed.
Post #814342 Back to top ▲
10/21/2007
  
sinnin
Member
Get over it. Being Gay is not a special club where only those who are KNOW. We all know. We all have to deal with relationships with people in our own ways.


The day you experience what its like knowing you probably won't be allowed to make your partners dream of being a bride true;the day you experience being kicked out of your own home and disowned by your own parents for merely following your heart and being true to yourself;the day you walk down the street holding your girlfriends hand and have everyone look at you as if you're the scum of the earth....that day...you can sit here and say "Being Gay is not a special club where only those who are KNOW."

I'm sitting here saying....'only those who are know.'

Because i am. And because i know.

Yes,life is full of prejudices. To all different social groups,racial groups,gender etc etc. But this is the GLBT boards. Which is why prejudice against members of the GLBT community is discussed.
Post #814342
babs
10/21/2007     
babs
Member
i think sexual preference is not a choice. i hope to be around long enough to see my grandson grow to adulthood. i love him to death and have never seen a child like him although i'm sure there are many. since day 1 he has loved to play with barbies, he wants to be a cheerleader, he's taken ballet, he's done my hair, he also likes trucks, cars, and "boy's toys" and he's only 7. his father used to get upset and the adult men we know would be horrified but they have learned that's who he is. he is so fun to be around. will he be gay, bi or straight? i don't know and unlike a lot of people i don't care. i just hope he's happy and that all people will have the right to be who they are and not be harrassed or belittled by others.
i'm sorry i have a tendency to run on and speak from my heart ~s~



Edited: 10/21/2007 by babs
Post #814381 Back to top ▲
10/21/2007
  
babs
Member
i think sexual preference is not a choice. i hope to be around long enough to see my grandson grow to adulthood. i love him to death and have never seen a child like him although i'm sure there are many. since day 1 he has loved to play with barbies, he wants to be a cheerleader, he's taken ballet, he's done my hair, he also likes trucks, cars, and "boy's toys" and he's only 7. his father used to get upset and the adult men we know would be horrified but they have learned that's who he is. he is so fun to be around. will he be gay, bi or straight? i don't know and unlike a lot of people i don't care. i just hope he's happy and that all people will have the right to be who they are and not be harrassed or belittled by others.
i'm sorry i have a tendency to run on and speak from my heart ~s~



Edited: 10/21/2007 by babs
Post #814381
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