Welcome Guest! ( Login | Register )
Is there a god? Science vs. Religion
   
RainbowSix
12/25/2007     
Member I"ve often wondered about the origin religion as it exsits today. I'm generally a big fan of the scientic approach...that anything can be determined through a series of theories, hypothises, experiments, and conclusions. I'm not a big subscriber to the whole "shit happens" train of thought. One of the first things I learned in pyschology was that correlation does not prove causation. Just because two things are related, does not mean one caused the other. Before the advancement of a number of sciences...there were a lot of things man did not know. He didn't know the earth was round for instance. Even suggesting that it was, was enough to get someone like Copernicus in a boat load of trouble. I always felt that religion spawned from an absence of science. Speaking of god...take the Romans and the Greeks. They didn't have a god. They had DOZENS. In fact, it's hard to think of something they DIDN'T have a god for. There was a time when certain things occurred that mankind simply couldn't grasp the reason behind. Take floods, famines, and plagues. Meteorology hadn't even developed as a science. No one knew why the floods came...or why no rain came at all. There was a tendancy for people to take the actions of a day to day man, and blame it for causing something catastrophic...merely because the two incidents coincided with one another. Pretty presumptuous, but how else could it be explained? I've always thought that the first theologists, or priests...were amongst the first rudimentary scientists. They were people that had at least a basic understanding that some things that occurred had a reason behind them that people just didn't quite grasp...and they used that ignorance to rule people in fear of some unseen, vengeful omnipotent being. I think people were easily manipulated into behavioral patterns that were driven by fear. I think some things were just so far beyond the average unedcuated persons understanding and comprehension back then, that they just had no other way to explain why certain things happened.
Post #821190 Back to top ▲
12/25/2007
  
RainbowSix
Member
I"ve often wondered about the origin religion as it exsits today. I'm generally a big fan of the scientic approach...that anything can be determined through a series of theories, hypothises, experiments, and conclusions. I'm not a big subscriber to the whole "shit happens" train of thought. One of the first things I learned in pyschology was that correlation does not prove causation. Just because two things are related, does not mean one caused the other. Before the advancement of a number of sciences...there were a lot of things man did not know. He didn't know the earth was round for instance. Even suggesting that it was, was enough to get someone like Copernicus in a boat load of trouble. I always felt that religion spawned from an absence of science. Speaking of god...take the Romans and the Greeks. They didn't have a god. They had DOZENS. In fact, it's hard to think of something they DIDN'T have a god for. There was a time when certain things occurred that mankind simply couldn't grasp the reason behind. Take floods, famines, and plagues. Meteorology hadn't even developed as a science. No one knew why the floods came...or why no rain came at all. There was a tendancy for people to take the actions of a day to day man, and blame it for causing something catastrophic...merely because the two incidents coincided with one another. Pretty presumptuous, but how else could it be explained? I've always thought that the first theologists, or priests...were amongst the first rudimentary scientists. They were people that had at least a basic understanding that some things that occurred had a reason behind them that people just didn't quite grasp...and they used that ignorance to rule people in fear of some unseen, vengeful omnipotent being. I think people were easily manipulated into behavioral patterns that were driven by fear. I think some things were just so far beyond the average unedcuated persons understanding and comprehension back then, that they just had no other way to explain why certain things happened.
Post #821190
khristofer
12/25/2007     
Member
RainbowSix (12/25/2007)
In fact, it's hard to think of something they DIDN'T have a god for.


Premature ejaculation. Though I hear that was coming quickly.
Post #821194 Back to top ▲
12/25/2007
  
khristofer
Member
RainbowSix (12/25/2007)
In fact, it's hard to think of something they DIDN'T have a god for.


Premature ejaculation. Though I hear that was coming quickly.
Post #821194
khristofer
12/27/2007     
Member jrod: That's called the god of the gaps fallacy. We don't know how to do X, therefore god did it. When we learn how to do whatever it is, people have moved on to the next thing we don't know how to do. The set of things we (as a species) don't know how to do keeps getting smaller. So not only is it a logical fallacy, but by using it you're disparaging your supreme being.
Post #821261 Back to top ▲
12/27/2007
  
khristofer
Member
jrod: That's called the god of the gaps fallacy. We don't know how to do X, therefore god did it. When we learn how to do whatever it is, people have moved on to the next thing we don't know how to do. The set of things we (as a species) don't know how to do keeps getting smaller. So not only is it a logical fallacy, but by using it you're disparaging your supreme being.
Post #821261
NightTemptress
12/31/2007     
Member
Neither agrees nor disagrees with specific comments, but offers these thoughts:

Science is based on a gut feeling born in a flesh and blood man who spends time (sometimes his lifetime) attempting to prove and sometimes disprove his hunch. Eventually, whether it be in his lifetime or not, logical empirical evidence will answer his questions.

God is based on a gut feeling born in a flesh and blood man who in the end really only has his faith in God that God exists. If accepts it as his subjective faith, he knows he can not prove it to anyone-- it is only for him.

Religion is an organized Xenophobic club created by a group of men with gut feelings that didn't like their neighbor's gut feelings so discovered a way to ostracize them. (Or by a King who wanted a divorce).

I like faith. I'm just choosey about who or what earns it.

NT
Post #821751 Back to top ▲
12/31/2007
  
Neither agrees nor disagrees with specific comments, but offers these thoughts:

Science is based on a gut feeling born in a flesh and blood man who spends time (sometimes his lifetime) attempting to prove and sometimes disprove his hunch. Eventually, whether it be in his lifetime or not, logical empirical evidence will answer his questions.

God is based on a gut feeling born in a flesh and blood man who in the end really only has his faith in God that God exists. If accepts it as his subjective faith, he knows he can not prove it to anyone-- it is only for him.

Religion is an organized Xenophobic club created by a group of men with gut feelings that didn't like their neighbor's gut feelings so discovered a way to ostracize them. (Or by a King who wanted a divorce).

I like faith. I'm just choosey about who or what earns it.

NT
Post #821751
khristofer
1/3/2008     
Member
bree (12/27/2007)
The fallacy is that God was invented to explain the unknown.


I was not directly addressing whether or not God exists. I was pointing out the errant logic (and errant theology) behind jrodmc's statement regarding weather forcasting.
Post #821929 Back to top ▲
1/3/2008
  
khristofer
Member
bree (12/27/2007)
The fallacy is that God was invented to explain the unknown.


I was not directly addressing whether or not God exists. I was pointing out the errant logic (and errant theology) behind jrodmc's statement regarding weather forcasting.
Post #821929
ImaDummy
6/14/2012     
Member "The fallacy is that God was invented to explain the unknown. "

To early man, the whole world was an unknown, and God(s) were invoked to explain it. God is still invoked today to explain events that seem to be without purpose. (Acts of God)

I think that is no fallacy.
Post #965615 Back to top ▲
6/14/2012
  
ImaDummy
Member
"The fallacy is that God was invented to explain the unknown. "

To early man, the whole world was an unknown, and God(s) were invoked to explain it. God is still invoked today to explain events that seem to be without purpose. (Acts of God)

I think that is no fallacy.
Post #965615
~pw~
6/14/2012     
Member I believe there is a God.

I also believe He does not approve of organized religion
Post #965617 Back to top ▲
6/14/2012
  
~pw~
Member
I believe there is a God.

I also believe He does not approve of organized religion
Post #965617
MrCustomer
6/15/2012     
Member "There is no God" in not a scientific statement, and is as absurd and ignorant as the religions who say "the Big Bang Theory did't happen" or that "evolution is wrong, God created the entire universe in 6 days) All of these are based on ignorance and preconceived beliefs.

A proper scientific statement would be "Science can neither prove, nor disprove the existance of God, and if he does exist it is outside our field of expertise to determine"

Science and religion should not oppose each other, neither fields of thought exludes the other except where ignorance is concerned. In religion's case, the question of How God created the universe comes up, a God of order and law, who created the physical, scientific laws of the universe would naturally use those laws to create it. Thus How did god inject mater into the universe? Answer, Big bang Theory, How did God create the world, plants animals and Man, answer: answer, Thesis of Evolution

Inteligent disign does not negate scientific fact, nor does any science negate religion.

What about seeing? If you can't see it, there is no evidence, it can't exist is a strong arguement against god, yet most scientific theory is just that theory, much of which is unprovable and unobservable, and much without any evidence, but we believe it because it is rational.

The Big Bang Theory and the thesis of evolution are accepted, despite being unprovable and unobservable, because they are rational, The universe came from somewhere, we came from somewhere, therefore these theories must rationally be accepted. Because they fit.

And they fit regardless of if we belive in God or not.

And religion should accept rational thought as well. The bible for example condemns outright in strong terms, blind faith. It redicules ignorance and blind faith, instead, suprisingly, encouraging the beliefs be reached through rational, educated thought by free thinking individuals.

A good example of this is when psalms ridicules those worshiping idols they made with their own hands, with eyes that can't see, hands that can't touch, etc and saying that those who worship them become like them, ie blind, ignorant and powerless. A suprisingly rational statement for a religion that worships a God to make.

The question is, can we rationalize the existance of a God?

Well for starters, as above I argued that believing in God does not mean ignorance nor does it contradict or deny any science or rational thought.

For example, Evolution can be seen as the means by which God created life. Incidentally the bible does not say that God literally created life in 7 literal days, but rather refers to periods, much like we do (back in the day, in my father's day...) and the second chapter even makes this clear when it refers to all 7 days as just one day "in that day god created the heavens and the earth" These creative periods could have been millions of years long.

My point is that the science of Evolution does not effect the belief of Inteligent Design. So when someone makes an unscientific statement such as "Life evolved, therefore there is no God" they are supporting ignorance rather then enlightenment, because they are no different then the religious answer of "Evolutionary science is blasphemy, life was created in 7 literal days with God's magic wand" Neither are rational statements.

My Rational arguement for the existance of God, using scientific evidence, is Chaos theory. This idea is that random events, while in of themselves are unpredicable when repeated form a patern. As this patern grows more and more complex it becomes predictable, and eventually inteligent. We see this with computers, as we develop AI and faster, more complex computers we will eventually improve AI to the point where it is no longer artificial but actual inteligence and even possibly electronic life.

Is this rational? Well we have proof in our own existance. The Big Bang was a chaotic event, so too was the origins of life, as chemical mixtures became more complex in ancient oceans, they formed a patern, amino acids, they because more complex and eventually formed strands of DNA, then single celled organizms, mutliple celled organisms, plants, vertibre, animals, dinosaurs, inteligent life, Man!

Following this thought, it is rational to consider if the quantum mechanical forces in the universe before the big bang became complex enough, that it is possible for it to form a patern and thereby gain inteligent. A spontaneous creation of sentient, inteligent life in the form of pure quantum energy.

But is this rational?

Well I submit that those same complex quantum energies Did in fact cause the Big bang, from which cosmic forces shaped the known universe, including a small planet from which the spontaneous creation of sentient, inteligent life , that is Humans, did in fact come about.

So I argue that it is rational that complex quantum forces of energy can spontaneously create life, since there is strong evidence that this has occured already.

So as a fact, proven by our own existance, inteligent, sentient life can and does occur when a patern becomes complex enough. We have accepted that this can occur biologically, and electroically in the future (in computers) so it is rational to supose that this could occur in other forms as well.

My overall point?

That God can be rationally accepted and religion followed, without ignorance and without ignoring or conflicting with rational scientific thought

Edited: 6/15/2012 by MrCustomer
Post #965690 Back to top ▲
6/15/2012
  
MrCustomer
Member
"There is no God" in not a scientific statement, and is as absurd and ignorant as the religions who say "the Big Bang Theory did't happen" or that "evolution is wrong, God created the entire universe in 6 days) All of these are based on ignorance and preconceived beliefs.

A proper scientific statement would be "Science can neither prove, nor disprove the existance of God, and if he does exist it is outside our field of expertise to determine"

Science and religion should not oppose each other, neither fields of thought exludes the other except where ignorance is concerned. In religion's case, the question of How God created the universe comes up, a God of order and law, who created the physical, scientific laws of the universe would naturally use those laws to create it. Thus How did god inject mater into the universe? Answer, Big bang Theory, How did God create the world, plants animals and Man, answer: answer, Thesis of Evolution

Inteligent disign does not negate scientific fact, nor does any science negate religion.

What about seeing? If you can't see it, there is no evidence, it can't exist is a strong arguement against god, yet most scientific theory is just that theory, much of which is unprovable and unobservable, and much without any evidence, but we believe it because it is rational.

The Big Bang Theory and the thesis of evolution are accepted, despite being unprovable and unobservable, because they are rational, The universe came from somewhere, we came from somewhere, therefore these theories must rationally be accepted. Because they fit.

And they fit regardless of if we belive in God or not.

And religion should accept rational thought as well. The bible for example condemns outright in strong terms, blind faith. It redicules ignorance and blind faith, instead, suprisingly, encouraging the beliefs be reached through rational, educated thought by free thinking individuals.

A good example of this is when psalms ridicules those worshiping idols they made with their own hands, with eyes that can't see, hands that can't touch, etc and saying that those who worship them become like them, ie blind, ignorant and powerless. A suprisingly rational statement for a religion that worships a God to make.

The question is, can we rationalize the existance of a God?

Well for starters, as above I argued that believing in God does not mean ignorance nor does it contradict or deny any science or rational thought.

For example, Evolution can be seen as the means by which God created life. Incidentally the bible does not say that God literally created life in 7 literal days, but rather refers to periods, much like we do (back in the day, in my father's day...) and the second chapter even makes this clear when it refers to all 7 days as just one day "in that day god created the heavens and the earth" These creative periods could have been millions of years long.

My point is that the science of Evolution does not effect the belief of Inteligent Design. So when someone makes an unscientific statement such as "Life evolved, therefore there is no God" they are supporting ignorance rather then enlightenment, because they are no different then the religious answer of "Evolutionary science is blasphemy, life was created in 7 literal days with God's magic wand" Neither are rational statements.

My Rational arguement for the existance of God, using scientific evidence, is Chaos theory. This idea is that random events, while in of themselves are unpredicable when repeated form a patern. As this patern grows more and more complex it becomes predictable, and eventually inteligent. We see this with computers, as we develop AI and faster, more complex computers we will eventually improve AI to the point where it is no longer artificial but actual inteligence and even possibly electronic life.

Is this rational? Well we have proof in our own existance. The Big Bang was a chaotic event, so too was the origins of life, as chemical mixtures became more complex in ancient oceans, they formed a patern, amino acids, they because more complex and eventually formed strands of DNA, then single celled organizms, mutliple celled organisms, plants, vertibre, animals, dinosaurs, inteligent life, Man!

Following this thought, it is rational to consider if the quantum mechanical forces in the universe before the big bang became complex enough, that it is possible for it to form a patern and thereby gain inteligent. A spontaneous creation of sentient, inteligent life in the form of pure quantum energy.

But is this rational?

Well I submit that those same complex quantum energies Did in fact cause the Big bang, from which cosmic forces shaped the known universe, including a small planet from which the spontaneous creation of sentient, inteligent life , that is Humans, did in fact come about.

So I argue that it is rational that complex quantum forces of energy can spontaneously create life, since there is strong evidence that this has occured already.

So as a fact, proven by our own existance, inteligent, sentient life can and does occur when a patern becomes complex enough. We have accepted that this can occur biologically, and electroically in the future (in computers) so it is rational to supose that this could occur in other forms as well.

My overall point?

That God can be rationally accepted and religion followed, without ignorance and without ignoring or conflicting with rational scientific thought

Edited: 6/15/2012 by MrCustomer
Post #965690
AntiHero
11/18/2013     
Member I am wary of anyone who claims to be overly-certain one way or the other, to be honest.
Post #996477 Back to top ▲
11/18/2013
  
AntiHero
Member
I am wary of anyone who claims to be overly-certain one way or the other, to be honest.
Post #996477
AntiHero
11/19/2013     
Member
Sanhendrin (11/19/2013)
I didn't say there was one or not, I just asked why must there be one?


And I didn't speak to you specifically!

My comment was meant generally - to everyone.

Your question is valid - why must there be one?

Equally valid is the reverse question.

Mostly I lean towards "There probably isn't a God" but sometimes I wonder if there is...

The whole "God up in the sky in Heaven" thing is a little ridiculous though.

As is the idea of Hell. I don't buy it...

But whatever people want to believe is fine by me. I'm not worried.
Post #996515 Back to top ▲
11/19/2013
  
AntiHero
Member
Sanhendrin (11/19/2013)
I didn't say there was one or not, I just asked why must there be one?


And I didn't speak to you specifically!

My comment was meant generally - to everyone.

Your question is valid - why must there be one?

Equally valid is the reverse question.

Mostly I lean towards "There probably isn't a God" but sometimes I wonder if there is...

The whole "God up in the sky in Heaven" thing is a little ridiculous though.

As is the idea of Hell. I don't buy it...

But whatever people want to believe is fine by me. I'm not worried.
Post #996515
{littlemissy}CarnivalJack
8/13/2014     
Member And yet when something is seriously wrong with a loved one and there's no where to turn
Nine out of ten of us will fall to our knees and pray to God!

Why If he's not real?

I'm catholic but I'm not stupid i know some religious leaders have got stuff wrong and lost their way, but he is there. He's everywhere Smile

Post #1007955 Back to top ▲
8/13/2014
  
And yet when something is seriously wrong with a loved one and there's no where to turn
Nine out of ten of us will fall to our knees and pray to God!

Why If he's not real?

I'm catholic but I'm not stupid i know some religious leaders have got stuff wrong and lost their way, but he is there. He's everywhere Smile

Post #1007955
{littlemissy}CarnivalJack
8/13/2014     
Member Every human being is so much more than a sack of anything.
Post #1007956 Back to top ▲
8/13/2014
  
Every human being is so much more than a sack of anything.
Post #1007956
Kasha
8/14/2014     
Member
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” ― Lawrence M. Krauss


Fate whispered to the Warrior "You can't withstand the storm.."
The Warrior whispered back "I am the storm."
Post #1007974 Back to top ▲
8/14/2014
  
Kasha
Member
“Every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. And, the atoms in your left hand probably came from a different star than your right hand. It really is the most poetic thing I know about physics: You are all stardust. You couldn’t be here if stars hadn’t exploded, because the elements - the carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, iron, all the things that matter for evolution and for life - weren’t created at the beginning of time. They were created in the nuclear furnaces of stars, and the only way for them to get into your body is if those stars were kind enough to explode. So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today.” ― Lawrence M. Krauss


Fate whispered to the Warrior "You can't withstand the storm.."
The Warrior whispered back "I am the storm."
Post #1007974
~Knighthawk
11/17/2014     
Member Of course there is a God, evolution proves that. Some may say it disproves it, but no, no, no, it proves it. Out of the millions and millions of species on this earth, why is only one capable of reaching the stars, having the ability to create and shape the very planet we live on? Out of millions of species, it makes no sense only one would evolve with those abilities to be basically Gods on our own world. Why are we Gods on our own world? Because we are made in the image of God.
Post #1011202 Back to top ▲
11/17/2014
  
~Knighthawk
Member
Of course there is a God, evolution proves that. Some may say it disproves it, but no, no, no, it proves it. Out of the millions and millions of species on this earth, why is only one capable of reaching the stars, having the ability to create and shape the very planet we live on? Out of millions of species, it makes no sense only one would evolve with those abilities to be basically Gods on our own world. Why are we Gods on our own world? Because we are made in the image of God.
Post #1011202
_M_
11/18/2014     
Member 'course there's a God


how else do we justify the slaughter?
Post #1011217 Back to top ▲
11/18/2014
  
_M_
Member
'course there's a God


how else do we justify the slaughter?
Post #1011217
miss_Behavin
11/18/2014     
Member
Why does it matter?

If you need the idea of a fanciful man in the sky to live your life right and be a good person then I got news for you, that don't make you good.

-shrugs- Believe if you want to believe. Don't believe if you don't.

Should have no bearing on the world.
Post #1011220 Back to top ▲
11/18/2014
  
miss_Behavin
Member
Why does it matter?

If you need the idea of a fanciful man in the sky to live your life right and be a good person then I got news for you, that don't make you good.

-shrugs- Believe if you want to believe. Don't believe if you don't.

Should have no bearing on the world.
Post #1011220
~*~pink~fluff~*~
11/18/2014     
Member but not everyone's idea of God is a 'fanciful man in the sky' .... bit I so get your analogy missB....it's used often.

I don't strive to live a 'good' life just so I'm not damned to hell.....(and different people have different perceptions of 'good') ....... I aspire to live what I consider a good life because it is enriching and emotionally healing and healthy for me. but what I consider a 'good' life now is different to several,years ago...my mind is growing and changing and opening up to new ideas and thoughts.


♡ ~ ♡ ~ “Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love.” Lao Tzu
Post #1011228 Back to top ▲
11/18/2014
  
but not everyone's idea of God is a 'fanciful man in the sky' .... bit I so get your analogy missB....it's used often.

I don't strive to live a 'good' life just so I'm not damned to hell.....(and different people have different perceptions of 'good') ....... I aspire to live what I consider a good life because it is enriching and emotionally healing and healthy for me. but what I consider a 'good' life now is different to several,years ago...my mind is growing and changing and opening up to new ideas and thoughts.


♡ ~ ♡ ~ “Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profoundness. Kindness in giving creates love.” Lao Tzu
Post #1011228
miss_Behavin
11/18/2014     
Member
Well my assumption was that he meant the Christian God, but I could be wrong.

Either way, I'm all for live and let live. I personally don't believe in god. Any of them, but someone else doing so doesn't bother me unless they use that belief to infringe on my rights...which sadly happens often here in the States.

But that's a whole 'nother can of worms -sl-
Post #1011229 Back to top ▲
11/18/2014
  
miss_Behavin
Member
Well my assumption was that he meant the Christian God, but I could be wrong.

Either way, I'm all for live and let live. I personally don't believe in god. Any of them, but someone else doing so doesn't bother me unless they use that belief to infringe on my rights...which sadly happens often here in the States.

But that's a whole 'nother can of worms -sl-
Post #1011229
tooldtocare
11/25/2016     
Member Yes in my view (:-
Post #1035136 Back to top ▲
11/25/2016
  
tooldtocare
Member
Yes in my view (:-
Post #1035136
Columns Display
Show/Hide Columns and Drag the Icon to Reorder
Show rows with value thatAndClear
Export
Topic Info
Forum Moderators: Cradz, MistressTrinna, CarelessWhisper
By continuing past this page, and by your continued use of this site, you agree to be bound by and abide by our terms of use, privacy policy and our use of cookies.
©2001-2018 The Pork Community Inc.
All Rights Reserved.
Designed, developed and maintained by Cradz.
This site is for adults who wish to chat anonymously with like minded grown ups. There is no advertising, basic membership to this chat site is free and our chat is old school internet 1.0 style free chat rooms. Chat online with people from all walks of life today!